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Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by Saria on Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:31 pm

3 Reasons why Skyward Sword could Mess Up – A pre-release viewpoint


The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword is due for a November 20th, 2011 release date here in the United States [other release dates include Nov 23, Nov 18, etc]. From an experienced Zelda player’s standpoint, it is shaping up to be the next Ocarina of Time or A Link to the Past in form and stature. It is known to have a full fledged upgrade system, massive overworlds which appear to have the capability to stage out-of-dungeon fights, and characters that resemble those of Majora’s Mask in development. The story, despite the lack of publicly known details, seems to be on the path of greatness. The gameplay, from what we’ve seen thus far, is fully refined and ready to be used! The items appear to be diverse in usage! So, how in the world could Skyward Sword mess up Zelda? Simply put, what I’ve listed is what could mess the whole picture up.

Upgrade System – Really?
Zelda is in need of cutting-edge, unique changes. If it didn’t happen now, who knows what would have happened with the series?
What could’ve happened is irrelevant, the fact is we’re getting them soon enough. Completely new reworking of how we obtain new items, based upon a massive fetch quest previously seen in other RPGs.



All of these “cutting-edge” and “unique” features that the upgrade system of Skyward Sword seems to be adding into the Zelda formula really aren’t so unique. As soon as I saw direct feed video presentation of the system, immediately the thought of the Kingdom Hearts series invaded my mind. The upgrade system is not unique. It has been done before, countless numbers of times. Past Zelda games have attempted to do it as well, though with the Zelda formula established by A Link to the Past and brushed up by Ocarina of Time, these ‘new’ ideas were viewed by the main Zelda team – including Miyamoto-san and Aonuma-san – as unworthy to grace a game that has the subtitle of “Legend of Zelda”.

What many Zelda fans have said, or will begin to say in time, is ‘Why haven’t these changes appeared in previous games? What’s the deal?!” A straightforward answer to that question is ‘Those changes would have turned LoZ into a generic series’. That is in part what the upgrade system is doing; forcing Zelda into the status of a generic game. Currently, it still has that Zelda shell. But, if the system is met with extremely positive reception, no doubt Nintendo will retain it for future use within a later Zelda title. Why is that a bad thing? As stated before, things like the upgrade system have already been done before. Zelda has always been known to be different, hardly if ever borrowing concepts from other games. With the adoption of an upgrade system not-differing from those of other games, people will start to be able to compare the Zelda series with other series. The point here is that LoZ has always been on its own caliber, at least with the fanbase it entails. That is but one reason why Skyward Sword could eat itself alive.

Massive Overworld – Not again, please.

Utterly ridiculous, Skyward Sword is using the criticism that Twilight Princess & Wind Waker got and turning that around! The world is condensed! The overworld will not be so big!

Unfortunately for all the fans, it must be said that Skyward Sword will indeed have a grandly sized overworld. What we know so far is that the bird’s acceleration will be greater than that of the King of Red Lions [The Wind Waker; mode of transportation] and that the Sky will be filled with life and things to do, in stark contrast to Twilight Princess’ Hyrule Field. Battles have the potential to take place outside of confined dungeons and there may not even be a cue as to when and where those battles will take place. Those are all positive things, but in those lay the problem; like the upgrade system, out of dungeon scripted fights have already been done before in countless number of games. Out of sequence fights have been successfully done across Zelda games and gaming in general. No doubt those types of battles will meet great reception, simply because they are new and ‘innovative’. That would set a new standard for Zelda games, and in that Nintendo would not be willing to do anything contrary to the new norm seeing the success Skyward Sword [will?] make.



Of course there is no reason to suggest that all battles will take place in the grand overworld, and it is quite obvious seeing what Nintendo has done in the past that some battles will take place in a slightly more confined area. The mixing between the two may be perfectly done, or the more likely thing that could happen would be that either one area gets more battles and would become supersaturated.. That begs the question of is it really necessary to have large scale battles just for the sake of deviating from what is usually seen? Would it be so distinctly bland to have regularly staged battles in that same dungeon setting versus having the metaphorically speaking prairie view of the outside realm all the while being chased by the villain which you were seeking in the first place? Speaking of villains, that raises my final point: the gameplay.

1:1 Gameplay – Completely Unnecessary

We get to have strategic fights! No longer will everything be easy peasy!

I think this is the most ridiculous thing with which Skyward Sword is implemented, the 1:1 swordplay. Yes, 1:1 greatly increases the precision with which you strike your blade. Yes, pointing is no longer a hassle with this system of grandeur. But, what lies underneath all of that pleasant makeup is artificial difficulty. A main point of the 1:1 Gameplay, gathered from an interview from way back during E3 2010, was that Twilight Princess’ hack and slash-type play was forcing the gameplay to be too ridiculously easy, and to remedy that we now have the 1:1 gameplay to FORCE us to make precise strikes. That by itself isn’t bad, but with the way the enemy AI works, it makes things more complex and in that artificially difficult. Say, for example, you are at End-game [meaning, you are at the last story point of the game]. But, you forgot to get that one measly upgrade for your 100 percent run! So now, you have to travel back to the point in which that particular material drops and instead of grinding for that material, you have to sit through the tedium that is the enemies’ forced blocking your attacks.



Yes, the fear is their defense, no longer is it how much damage they can deal in one swing. No longer is it ‘where is their weak point?!’. The enemies of SS are shaping up to be ridiculously tedious to deal with just so that it is no longer hack and slash. From what I’ve seen of the TGS trailer and subsequent gameplay, all enemy AI is too simple to pose a real challenge outside of that initial confrontation. Damage still isn’t being dealt in reasonable amounts, alike that of Twilight Princess, and I doubt that will change. Enemies aren’t smart, they just run on a code that automatically determines “when [Player Character] makes an attempt to swing, detect direction of swing and block in said direction” OR “when [Player Character] makes an attempt to swing, make a ridiculous motion which registers as a dodge, then jump back”. They don’t know how to sync attacks. And we can’t deal damage accordingly because as I’ve said, it is too tedious to break through their initial defense though at that point, all we must do then is hack and slash just like we did back in the old days of Zelda.

If the enemies you face aren’t just cinderblocks of the highest rank of impenetrability, then they are of the type where that precise motion must be made or else it registers as a miss in the game system. Again, it is just too tedious.

Conclusion

These three “reasons” may seem ridiculous to most, completely insensible and without backing. They may be disproven upon release of the game. But, from what I am viewing thus far, Skyward Sword really is ending up on the line of ‘tedious, artificially long RPG’. Yes, it is great to see something different from the tried and true ALttP Formula, but with the way Skyward Sword is exemplifying this wanted difference, the Zelda series may be ‘branded’ forever.

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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by Saria on Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:32 pm

I added just a little chunk of paragraph at the end of your point of the massive overworld. :3

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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by Roxas on Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:41 pm

You see this, admins? QPS ARE BADASS.

The article is well structured and, barring Saria's edit, you are missing a bit of info for your Massive Overworld argument. Besides that, it is well structured, neat, and has supporting statements negatively and positively. Great post all in all!

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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by Guest on Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:54 pm

I figured that the amount of text within the massive Overworld argument was rather small; but I found near nothing to add to it. I suppose I could add another paragraph in addition to Lady Saria's edit, but again I don't know WHAT to add.

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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by VentusXII on Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:10 am

Don't call her LADY Saria, she hasn't attained LADY status yet [partly because we haven't made a LADY character rank?]. Great post, all that good stuff, just add like two more paragraphs to the massive overworld argument then give me some chocolates.

R-R-R Round and round the record spins all day.
Listen again, it takes you far away.
Trying to stop it is futile
So just listen now to my musical doodle!
Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo
Listen again to the Musical doodle!
Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo
Doo-doo-doo-doo.
Musical Doodle
Think you control it but it's way too hard.
Every time it plays it's an electric charge.
The sound in your head is brutal...
Now you're infected by the musical doodle!
Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo
Listen again to the musical doodle!
The song that you ran from is back again!
You wonder if the madness will ever end.
Trying to stop it is futile.
So just listen again to my musical doodle.
Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo
You gotta listen again to the musical doodle!
Doo-doo-doo-dooooooooo
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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by Link on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:58 pm

I leave for a couple moments, and Ven is already attacked by the Musical Doodles? Damn...

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サリアは本当にきれいです。YES OR NO?
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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by VentusXII on Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:59 pm

Reasons why Skyward Sword could Mess Up – A pre-release viewpoint

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword is due for a November 20th, 2011 release date here in the United States [other release dates include Nov 23, Nov 18, etc]. From an experienced Zelda player’s standpoint, it is shaping up to be the next Ocarina of Time or A Link to the Past
in form and stature. It is known to have a full fledged upgrade system,
massive overworlds which appear to have the capability to stage
out-of-dungeon fights, and characters that resemble those of Majora’s Mask
in development. The story, despite the lack of publicly known details,
seems to be on the path of greatness. The gameplay, from what we’ve seen
thus far, is fully refined and ready to be used! The items appear to be
diverse in usage! So, how in the world could Skyward Sword mess up Zelda? Simply put, what I’ve listed is what could mess the whole picture up.

Story - Recycled and Rehashed
The story of Skyward Sword isn't that of a traditional Zelda, it being
more of a dramatized chase movie with highlights of stereotypical
bullying here and there. This is completely fresh idea, and welcomed
within the Zelda series, but as has been said, even mere movies,
flicks even, have came out with the idea of chasing the enemy – and the
damsel – throughout the lands with a rather predictable ending. We don't
know ALL of the details, but as far we can see through the ever
clearing mist, the story could be stifled with cliches and the like.

We've seen nightmares turned real back in Link's Awakening. The Princess
has been captured ever since the original Legend of Zelda. The Hero has
always succeeded. The villain has always come about with some devious
intentions that induced the rage of the Hero and often the Princess as
well. When will we ever see beyond this choking curtain, and breath the
fresh air of welcomed change? The tempo of Skyward Sword's story may be
different, and it may be under subtly different themes, but they are
just that – subtle. If Nintendo hopes to recreate Ocarina of Time,
it'll need to hit every aspect hard, and leave its imprint where it has
hit. The 'high speed chase, blended with royality' does not bode well
for the game at all.

Upgrade System – Really?
Zelda is in need of cutting-edge, unique changes. If it didn’t happen now, who knows what would have happened with the series?
What could’ve happened is irrelevant, the fact is we’re getting them
soon enough. Completely new reworking of how we obtain new items, based
upon a massive fetch quest previously seen in other RPGs.

All of these “cutting-edge” and “unique” features that the upgrade system of Skyward Sword
seems to be adding into the Zelda formula really aren’t so unique. As
soon as I saw direct feed video presentation of the system, immediately
the thought of the Kingdom Hearts series invaded my mind. The
upgrade system is not unique. It has been done before, countless numbers
of times. Past Zelda games have attempted to do it as well, though with
the Zelda formula established by A Link to the Past and brushed up by
Ocarina of Time, these ‘new’ ideas were viewed by the main Zelda team –
including Miyamoto-san and Aonuma-san – as unworthy to grace a game that
has the subtitle of “Legend of Zelda”.

What many Zelda fans have said, or will begin to say in time, is ‘Why
haven’t these changes appeared in previous games? What’s the deal?!” A
straightforward answer to that question is ‘Those changes would have
turned LoZ into a generic series’. That is in part what the upgrade
system is doing; forcing Zelda into the status of a generic game.
Currently, it still has that Zelda shell. But, if the system is met with
extremely positive reception, no doubt Nintendo will retain it for
future use within a later Zelda title. Why is that a bad thing? As
stated before, things like the upgrade system have already been done
before. Zelda has always been known to be different, hardly if ever
borrowing concepts from other games. With the adoption of an upgrade
system not-differing from those of other games, people will start to be
able to compare the Zelda series with other series. The point here is
that LoZ has always been on its own caliber, at least with the fanbase
it entails. That is but one reason why Skyward Sword could eat itself alive.


Massive Overworld – Not again, please.

Utterly ridiculous, Skyward Sword is using the criticism that
Twilight Princess & Wind Waker got and turning that around! The
world is condensed! The overworld will not be so big!

Unfortunately for all the fans, it must be said that Skyward Sword will
indeed have a grandly sized overworld. What we know so far is that the
bird’s acceleration will be greater than that of the King of Red Lions [The Wind Waker; mode of transportation]
and that the Sky will be filled with life and things to do, in stark
contrast to Twilight Princess’ Hyrule Field. Battles have the potential
to take place outside of confined dungeons and there may not even be a
cue as to when and where those battles will take place. Those are all
positive things, but in those lay the problem; like the upgrade system,
out of dungeon scripted fights have already been done before in
countless number of games. Out of sequence fights have been successfully
done across Zelda games and gaming in general. No doubt those types of
battles will meet great reception, simply because they are new and
‘innovative’. That would set a new standard for Zelda games, and in that
Nintendo would not be willing to do anything contrary to the new norm
seeing the success Skyward Sword [will?] make.

Of course there is no reason to suggest that all battles will take place
in the grand overworld, and it is quite obvious seeing what Nintendo
has done in the past that some battles will take place in a slightly
more confined area. The mixing between the two may be perfectly done, or
the more likely thing that could happen would be that either one area
gets more battles and would become supersaturated.That begs the question
of is it really necessary to have large scale battles just for the sake
of deviating from what is usually seen? Would it be so distinctly bland
to have regularly staged battles in that same dungeon setting versus
having the metaphorically speaking prairie view of the outside realm all
the while being chased by the villain which you were seeking in the
first place? Speaking of villains, that raises my next point: the
characters.

Characters
So far, there is virtually no reason to worry about the characters.
Actually, characters appear to be well thought out. However, there is
always the chance that the characters will become as shallow as the ones
who appeared previous installments such as Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess
where they literally only spewed out one or two lines and they've run
out of dialogue. There is also the chance that, while developed nicely
in the beginning, characters begin to be killed off in importance and in
the long run are not memorable members of the cast. Villains could be
written poorly, not often seen in the Zelda series but it has been done
before; the heroes (Link & Zelda) could be so Mary Sue in nature
that flaws are completely overridden, to the point where weaknesses
really are not present in any capacity. That could do a number on the
pre-established fanbase community, which in turn would lead to drops in
Zelda love or regression into the elder titles, the mere thought of
which could breed more rehashes.

Now, there is no hope for complete originality in this day and age, but the Link in every Zelda game thus far and including Skyward Sword has always been a courageous young boy. Princess Zelda, though not a princess by definition in Skyward Sword,
naturally has been the damsel in distress; somehow or another this
formula hasn't changed throughout the 25 years of Zelda canon and
frankly, it seems as if fans are tired of this. We know for a fact that
Link and Zelda will take up their traditional roles in this game with a
little bit of human personality bleeding through. Is that really what
the fans want? What Nintendo wants? I am begging to say no, as the way SS
is shaping up the characters don't deserve the same monotone, cliche
roles they have served for twenty five-and-counting years.

1:1 Gameplay – Completely Unnecessary
We get to have strategic fights! No longer will everything be easy peasy!

I think this is the most ridiculous thing with which Skyward Sword
is implemented, the 1:1 swordplay. Yes, 1:1 greatly increases the
precision with which you strike your blade. Yes, pointing is no longer a
hassle with this system of grandeur. But, what lies underneath all of
that pleasant makeup is artificial difficulty. A main point of the 1:1
Gameplay, gathered from an interview from way back during E3 2010, was
that Twilight Princess’ hack and slash-type play was forcing the
gameplay to be too ridiculously easy, and to remedy that we now have the
1:1 gameplay to FORCE us to make precise strikes. That by itself isn’t
bad, but with the way the enemy AI works, it makes things more complex
and in that artificially difficult. Say, for example, you are at
End-game [meaning, you are at the last story point of the game]. But,
you forgot to get that one measly upgrade for your 100 percent run! So
now, you have to travel back to the point in which that particular
material drops and instead of grinding for that material, you have to
sit through the tedium that is the enemies’ forced blocking your
attacks.

Yes, the fear is their defense, no longer is it how much damage they can
deal in one swing. No longer is it ‘where is their weak point?!’. The
enemies of SS are shaping up to be ridiculously tedious to deal with
just so that it is no longer hack and slash. From what I’ve seen of the
TGS trailer and subsequent gameplay, all enemy AI is too simple to pose a
real challenge outside of that initial confrontation. Damage still
isn’t being dealt in reasonable amounts, alike that of Twilight
Princess, and I doubt that will change. Enemies aren’t smart, they just
run on a code that automatically determines “when [Player Character]
makes an attempt to swing, detect direction of swing and block in said
direction” OR “when [Player Character] makes an attempt to swing, make a
ridiculous motion which registers as a dodge, then jump back”. They
don’t know how to sync attacks. And we can’t deal damage accordingly
because as I’ve said, it is too tedious to break through their initial
defense though at that point, all we must do then is hack and slash just
like we did back in the old days of Zelda.

If the enemies you face aren’t just cinder-blocks of the highest rank of
impenetrability, then they are of the type where that precise motion
must be made or else it registers as a miss in the game system. Again,
it is just too tedious.

Conclusion
These “reasons” may seem ridiculous to most, completely insensible and
without backing. They may be dis-proven upon release of the game. But,
from what I am viewing thus far, Skyward Sword really is ending
up on the line of ‘cliche, artificially long RPG’. Yes, it is great to
see something different from the tried and true ALttP Formula, but with
the way Skyward Sword is exemplifying this much wanted difference, it could take a turn for the worse.

Much a better version, beats that *****'s (Cherry) version by a long run.

-Roxas
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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by Roxas on Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:41 pm

Much better version, sure enough beats that *****'s (Cherry) version by a long shot.

_________________
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Hypocorism: A nickname, talking like a baby when you're an adult, the usage of a nickname.
Convivial:Friendly, agreeable, jovial, etc.

Screw Toad, Wario, Peach, DK, Luigi, Bowser, and anyone else who beat me in Mario Kart DS.
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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by VanitasXII on Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:29 pm

Roxas, u a scrub u hear?

Ven's version is so much awesomer, honesty.
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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by VentusXII on Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:24 am

FOR EDITING PURPOSES; VAN IS GETTING HIS ARTICLE POSTED HOPEFULLY

5 Ways Skyward Sword Could Mess Up - A Pre-Release Viewpoint

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword is due for a November 20th, 2011 release date here in the United States [release dates elsewhere being
Nov 23, Nov 18]. From an experienced Zelda player’s standpoint, it is
shaping up to be the next Ocarina of Time or A Link to the Past in form
and stature. It is known to have a full-fledged upgrade system, massive
overworlds which appear to have the capability to stage out-of-dungeon boss fights, and characters that resemble those of Majora’s Mask in term of development. The story, despite the lack of too many known details, would seem to be on the path of greatness. The gameplay from what we’ve seen thus far is fully refined and ready to be put into action! The items appear to be diverse in usage. So, how in the world could Skyward Sword mess up Zelda? Well, I have five ways it could.

1. Story - Recycled and Rehashed

The story of Skyward Sword doesn't appear to be that of a traditional Zelda, instead being more of a dramatized chase movie with highlights of stereotypical bullying here and there. These are completely fresh ideas, and welcomed within the Zelda series. However, movies, and even old ones, have used the idea of chasing the enemy – and the damsel – throughout the lands, usually
with a rather predictable ending. We don't know ALL of the details, but
as far as we can see through the ever clearing mist, the story could be
stifled with cliches.

We've seen nightmares turned real back in Link's Awakening. The Princess
has been captured ever since the original Legend of Zelda. The Hero has
always succeeded. The villain has always come up with devious intentions and goals that induced rage in
the Hero and often the Princess as well. When will we ever see beyond
this choking curtain, and breathe the fresh air of a much welcomed
change? The tempo of Skyward Sword's story may be different, and it may
be under subtly different themes, but they are just that – subtle. If Miyamoto wants Skyward Sword to be even better than Ocarina of Time, then the game
will definitely have to find every niche it wants to settle in and stay
in those niches. In other words, it needs to have more than just
security in every aspect it delves into. The 'high speed chase, blended
with royalty' story does not bode well for the game’s outlook at all.

2. The Upgrade System – Really?

Zelda is in need of cutting-edge, creative changes. If it doesn’t happen now, who knows what will become of the series? Luckily that's irrelevant, because the fact is we’re getting those changes soon enough in the form of a completely brand-new reworking of how we obtain new items... based upon fetch quests previously seen in other RPGs.

The “uniqueness” of the upgrade system featured in Skyward Sword really isn’t so unique. As soon as I saw the
video presentation of the system, I immediately thought of the Kingdom
Hearts series. The memories I had of collecting countless materials
across the various areas only to have to trek back to the hub surged through my mind. How is it original for Zelda to essentially copy and paste the very same system used in many games before it? In any case, it has been done before countless times. Past Zelda games have even built up to using the system as well – inspiration or at least the framework for something similar to an
upgrade system was presented in the various trading sequences
throughout Link’s Awakening as well as the massive Kinstone trading
sequences used within The Minish Cap. Though with the Zelda formula
presented by A Link to the Past and brushed up upon by Ocarina of Time,
these ‘new’ ideas were viewed by the main Zelda team -including
Miyamoto-san and Aonuma-san- as unworthy to grace a game that has the
subtitle of “Legend of Zelda”.

What many Zelda fans have said, or will begin to say in time, is ‘Why
haven’t these changes appeared in previous games? What’s the deal?!” A
straightforward answer to that question is ‘Those changes would have
turned LoZ into a generic series’. That is in part what the upgrade
system is doing; turning Zelda into a generic game. Currently, it still has that Zelda core, but if the system is met with extremely positive reception, no doubt Nintendo will retain it for a future Zelda title.
Why is that a bad thing? As stated before, things like the upgrade
system have already been done before. Zelda has always been known to be
different, hardly if ever borrowing concepts from other games. With the
adoption of an upgrade system that doesn't differ from those of other games, people will start to be able to compare the Zelda series with other series. The point here is that Zelda has always been its own genre, at least as far as the fans are concerned.

3. Massive Overworld – Not again, please.

Utterly ridiculous. Skyward Sword is using the criticism that Twilight
Princess & Wind Waker got and turning that around! The world is
condensed! The overworld will not be so big!

Unfortunately for all the fans, it must be said that Skyward Sword will
indeed have a grandly sized overworld. What we know so far is that the
bird’s acceleration will be greater than that of the King of Red Lions
[The Wind Waker; mode of transportation] and that the Sky will be filled
with life and things to do, in stark contrast to Twilight Princess’
Hyrule Field. Battles have the potential to take place outside of
confined dungeons and there may not even be a cue as to when and where
those battles will take place. Those are all positive things, to be
sure.

Of course there is no reason to suggest that all battles will take place
in the grand overworld, and it is quite obvious seeing what Nintendo
has done in the past that some battles will take place in a slightly
more confined area. The mixing between the two may be perfectly done, or
the more likely thing that would happen would be that the other area
gets more battles and would become supersaturated with the smaller area
essentially being closed off.

Where is the problem in that, you ask? The problem is specifically that
the grandness of the overworld suggests that everything will be
scattered out to the point of long fetch quests a la Twilight Princess,
or the more likely case is a condensed overworld with not much to do but
the same lethargic sidequests that have been done for over a
millennium. Some players have a problem with that while others don't, it
truly depends on player preference.

That begs the question of is it really necessary to have large scale
battles just for the sake of deviating from what is usually seen? Would
it be so distinctly bland to have regularly staged battles in that same
dungeon setting versus having the metaphorically speaking prairie view
of the outside realm all the while being chased by the villain whom you
were seeking in the first place? Speaking of villains, that raises my
next point: the characters.

4. Characters

So far, there doesn't seem to be much reason to worry about the characters; they appear to be well thought out. However, there is always the chance that the characters will be as shallow as the ones who appeared in all the previous installments of the series, such as Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess where they literally only spewed out one or two lines before running out of dialogue. There is also the chance that, while developed nicely in the beginning, characters will become unimportant and fail to be memorable members of the cast in the long run. Villains can be written rather poorly, most exemplified in the ending of Twilight Princess and the pathetic “sacrifices” made
out of the villains of Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons; the heroes
(Link & Zelda) could be so Mary Sue in nature that flaws are
completely overridden, to the point where weaknesses really are not
present in any capacity. (omitted) Even minor NPCs could have great development in the beginning. That gives the illusion of a great and well-developed character, but in the end they could easily be essentially dropped from the cast. This is best seen in characters like Ilia and The Group
from Twilight Princess who both were relatively important to the story,
had somewhat great development in their introductions, but were not
even needed later in the game; the Sages who, despite their
importance in the overall story, had next to no true development in
Ocarina of Time; and lastly in characters such as the Tingle Brothers
who admittedly were heavily involved in the biggest sidequest of The Wind Waker,
but ultimately fell short of great characterization. That could do a
number on the pre-established fanbase community, which in turn would
lead to drops in Zelda love or regression into the elder titles, the
mere thought of which could breed more rehashes.

Now, there is no hope for complete originality in this day and age, every Link
thus far, including Skyward Sword's, has always been a courageous young
boy. Princess Zelda, though not a princess by definition in Skyward
Sword, naturally has been the damsel in distress; somehow or another the
formula hasn't changed throughout the 25 years of Zelda canon and
frankly, it seems as if fans are tired of this. We know for a fact that
Link and Zelda will take up their traditional roles in this game with a
little bit of human personality bleeding through. Is that really what
the fans want? What Nintendo wants? I am begging to say no, as the way
SS is shaping up the characters don't deserve the same monotone, cliché
roles they have served for twenty five-and-counting years.

5. 1:1 Gameplay – Completely Unnecessary

We’ll finally get to have strategic fights! No longer will everything be easy-peasy!

I think this is the most ridiculous thing that has been implemented into
Skyward Sword, the 1:1 swordplay. Yes, 1:1 greatly increases the
precision with which you strike your blade. Yes, pointing is no longer a
hassle with this system. But, what lies underneath all of that pleasant
makeup is artificial difficulty. A main point of the 1:1 Gameplay,
gathered from an interview from way back during E3 2010, was that
Twilight Princess’ hack and slash-type play was forcing the gameplay to
be too ridiculously easy, and to remedy that we now have the 1:1
gameplay to FORCE us to make precise strikes. That by itself isn’t bad,
but with the way the enemy AI works, it makes things more complex and in
that way it makes the game artificially difficult. Say, for example, you are at the end of the game,
but you forgot to get that one measly upgrade for your 100 percent run!
So now, you have to travel back to the point in which that particular
material drops and instead of simply defeating an enemy for that material, you have to sit through the tedium of fighting it with realistic swordplay.

Yes, the fear is now their defense, not how much damage they can deal in one swing. No longer is it ‘where is their weak point?!’ but how annoying it will be to hit. The enemies of SS are shaping up to be ridiculously tedious to deal with, seemingly so combat is no longer just hacking and slashing. From what I’ve seen of the TGS trailer and subsequent gameplay, the enemy AI is too simple to pose a real challenge outside of your first encounter with that type. Damage wasn’t being dealt in reasonable amounts, similar to how it was in Twilight Princess, and there is a lingering doubt that the problem
will change. Enemies aren’t smart, they just run on a code that
automatically determines “when [Player Character] makes an attempt to
swing, detect direction of swing and block in said direction” OR “when
[Player Character] makes an attempt to swing, make a ridiculous motion
which registers as a dodge, then jump back”. They don’t know how to attack intelligently, and we can’t properly deal damage because as I’ve said, it is too tedious to break through their initial defenses. (omitted)

If the enemies you face aren’t just cinder-blocks of the highest rank of
impenetrability, then they are of the type where that precise motion
must be made or else it registers as a miss in the game system. It is just too tedious.

Conclusion

These reasons may seem ridiculous to most, completely insensible and without backing. They may be disproven upon release of the game. But, from what I am viewing thus far, Skyward Sword really is ending up along
the lines of ‘cliche, artificially long RPG’. Yes, it is great to see
something different from the tried and true ALttP Formula, but with the
way Skyward Sword is implementing that much-wanted change, it could take a turn for the worse.
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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by VanitasXII on Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:35 am

Adding on:
Okay, now running over some areas I'll need you to work on. Keep in mind
these are taken out of the version I just finished editing.







If Miyamoto wants Skyward Sword to be even better than Ocarina of
Time, then the game will definitely have to find every niche it wants to
settle in and stay in those niches. In other words, it needs to have
more than just security in every aspect it delves into. The 'high speed
chase, blended with royalty' story does not bode well for the game’s
outlook at all.






This really doesn't make any sense at all. You need to explain
this in more common terms, because right now you're using a really
strange method of wording this, and I honestly have no idea what you're
trying to say.







Though with the Zelda formula presented by A Link to the Past and
brushed up upon by Ocarina of Time, these ‘new’ ideas were viewed by the
main Zelda team -including Miyamoto-san and Aonuma-san- as unworthy to
grace a game that has the subtitle of “Legend of Zelda”.






It's also pretty unclear what you're saying here, IMO. You just
said these kinds of things appeared in Zelda games, but now you're
saying they have been deemed unworthy for Zelda games by Nintendo? I'd
clarify and simplify, shortening it as much as possible. Perhaps even
omit it entirely.







What many Zelda fans have said, or will begin to say in time, is
‘Why haven’t these changes appeared in previous games? What’s the
deal?!” A straightforward answer to that question is ‘Those changes
would have turned LoZ into a generic series’.






This sentence needs to be completely reworked. For no reason,
you're basically speaking in both past and future tense. You need to
pick one way to describe it, and make sure you never claim people have
said something unless you're pretty certain they have or can back it up.



Now I need to run over the overworld section






3. Massive Overworld – Not again, please.

Utterly ridiculous. Skyward Sword is using the criticism that Twilight Princess & Wind Waker got and turning that around! The world is condensed! The overworld will not be so big!






What criticism? This first paragraph becomes very confusing
because you haven't been specific, so you need to elaborate. The rest of
this paragraph doesn't really make any sense either given what you say
in the following paragraph. Please be careful and make sure the average
reader can understand; word things clearly.







Unfortunately for all the fans, it must be said that Skyward
Sword will indeed have a grandly sized overworld. What we know so far is
that the bird’s acceleration will be greater than that of the King of
Red Lions [The Wind Waker; mode of transportation] and that the Sky will
be filled with life and things to do, in stark contrast to Twilight
Princess’ Hyrule Field. Battles have the potential to take place outside
of confined dungeons and there may not even be a cue as to when and
where those battles will take place. Those are all positive things, to be sure.






For the second paragraph, you start off by saying "unfortunately",
then rattle off a bunch of facts about Skyward Sword, but then you say
it's all a good thing? There's a serious disconnect here, and it
basically ruins this entire section; I have no idea what you're actually
saying about all the examples you're giving in the Overworld section.
Please read over this section and make sure it reads clearly and very
clearly illustrates what you're trying to say without confusion; read
over it as though you're a reader who has no idea what your opinion is,
as opposed to remembering what you intended when you read what you said.








That could do a number on the pre-established fanbase community,
which in turn would lead to drops in Zelda love or regression into the
elder titles, the mere thought of which could breed more rehashes.







This was in the Characters section, and this is another example of
a sentence that makes very little sense. What are you referring to as
the "pre-established fanbase community"? I've never heard those terms in
combination, so I'm not sure what you're referring to, or how this
could effect them and produce the outcome you're suggesting... even the
outcome you're suggesting is vague.








Now, there is no hope for complete originality in this day and age, every Link
thus far, including Skyward Sword's, has always been a courageous young
boy. Princess Zelda, though not a princess by definition in Skyward
Sword, naturally has been the damsel in distress; somehow or another the
formula hasn't changed throughout the 25 years of Zelda canon and
frankly, it seems as if fans are tired of this. We know for a fact that
Link and Zelda will take up their traditional roles in this game with a
little bit of human personality bleeding through. Is that really what
the fans want? What Nintendo wants? I am begging to say no, as the way
SS is shaping up the characters don't deserve the same monotone, cliché
roles they have served for twenty five-and-counting years.






You may want to tweak this, given that there have been statements
that Zelda is a more fleshed out character in Skyward Sword, and frankly
she's seen more fleshed out roles in The Wind Waker and Spirit Tracks.
At least you should acknowledge the real possibility that this won't be a
big problem if you're going to bring it up.








These reasons may seem ridiculous to most, completely insensible and without backing.
They may be disproven upon release of the game. But, from what I am
viewing thus far, Skyward Sword really is ending up along the lines of
‘cliche, artificially long RPG’. Yes, it is great to see something
different from the tried and true ALttP Formula, but with the way
Skyward Sword is implementing that much-wanted change, it could take a
turn for the worse.








I think you need to expand this conclusion a bit more. For the
first bolded part, instead of only running over potential problems or
criticisms of the article, I'd do some more elaboration and talk about
them, but in terms of thinking they're valid concerns and how they might
not be worth worrying about... this would be a good theme to conclude
the article with. The second bolded part could use a similar expansion
and diversification.


Just stuff I have to edits.
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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by Roxas on Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:17 pm


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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by Roxas on Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:13 pm

5 Ways
Skyward Sword Could Mess Up - A Pre-Release Viewpoint

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword is due for a November 20th, 2011 release
date here in the United States [release dates elsewhere being Nov 23,
Nov 18]. From an experienced Zelda player’s standpoint, it is shaping up to be
the next Ocarina of Time or A Link to the Past in form and stature. It is known
to have a full-fledged upgrade system, massive overworlds which appear to have
the capability to stage out-of-dungeon boss fights, and characters that
resemble those of Majora’s Mask in term of development. The story,
despite the lack of too many known details, would seem to be on
the path of greatness. The gameplay from what we’ve seen thus far is fully
refined and ready to be put into action! The items appear to be diverse
in usage. So, how in the world could Skyward Sword mess up Zelda? Well, I’ve
five ways it could.

1. Story - Recycled and Rehashed

The story of Skyward Sword doesn't appear to be that of a traditional
Zelda, instead being more of a dramatized chase movie with highlights of
stereotypical bullying here and there. These are completely fresh ideas,
and welcomed within the Zelda series. However, movies, and even old ones,
have used the idea of chasing the enemy – and the damsel – throughout
the lands, usually with a rather predictable ending. We don't know ALL
of the details, but as far as we can see through the ever clearing mist, the
story could be stifled with cliches.

We've seen nightmares turned real back in Link's Awakening. The Princess has
been captured ever since the original Legend of Zelda. The Hero has always
succeeded. The villain has always come up with devious intentions and goals
that induced rage in the Hero and often the Princess as well. When will
we ever see beyond this choking curtain, and breathe the fresh air of a much
welcomed change? The tempo of Skyward Sword's story may be different, and it
may be under subtly different themes, but they are just that – subtle. It is
known that SS is, from Miyamoto’s viewpoint, trying to compete with Ocarina of
Time in everything Zelda related. What that means is Skyward Sword will try to
do everything the best it can, but with the presently known “high speed chase”
arc of the story, the goal of beating even Ocarina of Time in the scale of
stories seems to be quite unrealistic.




2. The Upgrade System – Really?

Zelda is in need of cutting-edge, creative changes. If it doesn’t happen
now, who knows what will become of the series? Luckily that's
irrelevant, because the fact is we’re getting those changes soon enough in
the form of a completely brand-new reworking of how we obtain new items...
based upon fetch quests previously seen in other RPGs.

The “uniqueness” of the upgrade system featured in Skyward Sword (OMISSION)
really isn’t so unique. As soon as I saw the video presentation of the
system, I immediately thought of the Kingdom Hearts series. The memories I had
of collecting countless materials across the various areas only to have
to trek back to the hub surged through my mind. How is it original for
Zelda to essentially copy and paste the very same system used in many games
before it? In any case, it has been done before countless times. Past
Zelda games have even built up to using the system as well – inspiration
or at least the framework for something similar to an upgrade system was
presented in the various trading sequences throughout Link’s Awakening as well
as the massive Kinstone trading sequences used within The Minish Cap.

What many Zelda fans have said is ‘Why haven’t these changes appeared in previous
games? What’s the deal?!’. A straightforward answer to that question is ‘Those
changes would have turned LoZ into a generic series’. The upgrade system
appears to be doing exactly that; turning Zelda into a generic game.
Currently, it still has that Zelda core, but if the system is met with
extremely positive reception, no doubt Nintendo will retain it for a future
Zelda title. Why is that a bad thing? As stated before, things like the
upgrade system have already been done before. Zelda has always been known to be
different, hardly if ever borrowing concepts from other games. With the
adoption of an upgrade system that doesn't differ from those of other
games, people will start to be able to compare the Zelda series with other
series. The point here is that Zelda has always been its own genre,
at least as far as the fans are concerned.

3. Massive Overworld – Not again, please.

How ridiculous of a point is this?! Skyward Sword is using the basis of criticism
that Twilight Princess & Wind Waker received from fans – gigantic, empty
overworld [TP] and painstakingly slow travel [TWW]
– and doing a complete 180!
The world is condensed, and travel is so much faster!

It is quite obvious from recent trailers that Skyward Sword will indeed have a
grand overworld.
What we know so far is that the bird’s acceleration will be
greater than that of the King of Red Lions [The Wind Waker; mode of
transportation] and that the Sky will be filled with life and things to do, in stark
contrast to Twilight Princess’ Hyrule Field. Battles have the potential to take
place outside of confined dungeons and there may not even be a cue as to when
and where those battles will take place. Those are all positive things, to be
sure.

Of course there is no reason to suggest that all battles will take place in the
grand overworld, and it is quite obvious seeing what Nintendo has done in the
past that some battles will take place in a slightly more confined area. The
mixing between the two may be perfectly done, or the more likely thing that
would happen would be that the other area gets more battles and would become
supersaturated with the smaller area essentially being closed off.

Where is the problem in that, you ask? The problem is specifically that the
grandness of the overworld suggests that everything will be scattered out to
the point of long fetch quests a la Twilight Princess, or the more likely case
is a condensed overworld with not much to do but the same lethargic sidequests
that have been done for over a millennium. Some players have a problem with
that while others don't, it truly depends on player preference.

That begs the question of is it really necessary to have large scale battles
just for the sake of deviating from what is usually seen? Would it be so
distinctly bland to have regularly staged battles in that same dungeon setting
versus having the metaphorically speaking prairie view of the outside realm all
the while being chased by the villain whom you were seeking in the first place?
Speaking of villains, that raises my next point: the characters.

4. Characters

So far, there doesn't seem to be much reason to worry about the
characters; they appear to be well thought out. However, there is always
the chance that the characters will be as shallow as the ones who
appeared in all the previous installments of the series, such as
Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess where they literally only spewed out one
or two lines before running out of dialogue. There is also the chance
that, while developed nicely in the beginning, characters will become
unimportant and fail to be memorable members of the cast in the long run.
Villains can be written rather poorly, most exemplified in the ending of
Twilight Princess and the pathetic “sacrifices” made out of the villains
of Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons; the heroes (Link & Zelda) could be
so Mary Sue in nature that flaws are completely overridden, to the point where
weaknesses really are not present in any capacity. Even minor
NPCs could have great development in the beginning. That gives the illusion of
a great and well-developed character, but in the end they could
easily be essentially dropped from the cast. This is best seen in
characters like Ilia and The Group from Twilight Princess who
both were relatively important to the story, had somewhat great development in
their introductions, but were not even needed later in the game; the
Sages who, despite their importance in the overall story, had next to no true
development in Ocarina of Time; and lastly in characters such as the Tingle
Brothers who admittedly were heavily involved in the biggest sidequest of The
Wind Waker, but ultimately fell short of great characterization. A load of
unreasonable, unimportant characters could do a number on the Zelda fanbase,
which in turn would lead to drops in Zelda sales or regression into the older
titles of the series, the mere thought of which isn’t something Nintendo seems
to be prepared for.

Now, there is no hope for complete originality in this day and age, every
Link thus far, including Skyward Sword's, has always been a courageous
young boy. Princess Zelda, though not a princess by definition in Skyward
Sword, naturally has been the damsel in distress; somehow or another the
formula hasn't changed throughout the 25 years of Zelda canon and frankly, it
seems as if fans are tired of this. In other Zelda titles, the Princess Zelda
has served a slightly different role – she is featured as a semi-playable
character in Spirit Tracks and one can argue she is perhaps the deuteragonist alongside the protagonist Link; within The
Wind Waker, the Princess is hidden within the frame of another character,
thereby giving off a distinctive personality from her ‘alter ego’. However, we
know for a fact that Link and Zelda will take up their traditional roles in
this game with a just a semblance of human personality bleeding through. Is
that really what the fans want? What Nintendo wants? I am begging to say no, as
the way SS is shaping up the characters don't deserve the same monotone, cliché
roles they have served for twenty five-and-counting years.

5. 1:1 Gameplay – Completely Unnecessary

We’ll finally get to have strategic fights! No longer will everything be
easy-peasy!

I think this is the most ridiculous thing that has been implemented into
Skyward Sword, the 1:1 swordplay. Yes, 1:1 greatly increases the precision with
which you strike your blade. Yes, pointing is no longer a hassle with this
system. But, what lies underneath all of that pleasant makeup is artificial
difficulty. A main point of the 1:1 Gameplay, gathered from an interview from
way back during E3 2010, was that Twilight Princess’ hack and slash-type play
was forcing the gameplay to be too ridiculously easy, and to remedy that we now
have the 1:1 gameplay to FORCE us to make precise strikes. That by itself isn’t
bad, but with the way the enemy AI works, it makes things more complex and in
that way it makes the game artificially difficult. Say, for example, you
are at the end of the game, but you forgot to get that one measly
upgrade for your 100 percent run! So now, you have to travel back to the point
in which that particular material drops and instead of simply defeating an enemy
for that material, you have to sit through the tedium of fighting it with
realistic swordplay.

Yes, the fear is now their defense, not how much damage they can
deal in one swing. No longer is it ‘where is their weak point?!’ but how
annoying it will be to hit. The enemies of SS are shaping up to be
ridiculously tedious to deal with, seemingly so combat is no
longer just hacking and slashing. From what I’ve seen of
the TGS trailer and subsequent gameplay, the enemy AI is too simple to
pose a real challenge outside of your first encounter with that type.
Damage wasn’t being dealt in reasonable amounts, similar to how it was in
Twilight Princess, and there is a lingering doubt that the problem will
change. Enemies aren’t smart, they just run on a code that automatically
determines “when [Player Character] makes an attempt to swing, detect direction
of swing and block in said direction” OR “when [Player Character] makes an
attempt to swing, make a ridiculous motion which registers as a dodge, then
jump back”. They don’t know how to attack intelligently, and we can’t properly
deal damage because as I’ve said, it is too tedious to break through their
initial defenses.

If the enemies you face aren’t just cinder-blocks of the highest rank of
impenetrability, then they are of the type where that precise motion must be
made or else it registers as a miss in the game system. It is just too
tedious.

Conclusion

These reasons may seem ridiculous to most, however it is important that
one
look over all five and compare them to specific incidents within past
Zeldas.
Is the overworld featured in Twilight Princess truly barren as well as
oversized? One can argue that the overworld's scale does aid in the
gameplay factor, and it definitely lends itself well to the scenery of
the game. Is the 1:1 gameplay truly necessary to give off the “brand new
Zelda”
vibe? It wouldn't be far fetched to say that Zelda
requires a few diversities her and there, and what better a place to
start with the button-mashing style we're so accustomed to? Do the
characters of Skyward Sword
have the slightest chance of becoming ruined, with the feedback and
spoilers
dished out thus far? Realistically speaking, there could be a 50/50
chance, it truly depends on the player in session. Is the story and
upgrade system too terribly used up by
other franchises that, in the long run, will keep Skyward Sword from
becoming
the cornerstone of future Zeldas? That too is dependent on the player in question With
naught but a week and a few days left from release, the true, unadulterated answers will surely shine through the clouds.

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Re: Three Reasons Why Skyward Sword Could Mess Up

Post by Saria on Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:08 pm

Bravo, Van! Hope it gets posted within the day! (:

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